Tuesday, 10 December 2013
Where Scrog Started ,Posts from the originals Scroggers From 97 Part 5
This summary is not available. Please
click here to view the post.
Where Scrog Started ,Posts from the originals Scroggers From 97 Part 4
From nobody@REPLAY.COM Sat Nov 01 19:17:46 1997
Newsgroups: alt.drugs.pot.cultivation
Subject: Re: ScrOG vs SOG and other questions...
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:17:46 +0100 (MET)
Message-ID: <199711020017.BAA08904@basement.replay.com>
pH wrote:
>Bud wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:05:56 +0100 (MET), pH wrote:
>>>
>
><snip>
>
>>I've gotten around the need for keeping multiple mothers. Details to
>>follow. But I think you also need to add into the equation the extra time
>>needed for fewer plants to fill a ScrOG canopy.
>
>The extra time I understand as meaning veg time.
Yes.
>About 75-80% of the canopy is actually filled 'during' flowering. At least
>with the varieties I've used (from stash seed) this has always been the
>case. I just checked some notes, here's a brief chronology for two plants,
>each with a 2x4ft canopy to fill:
>
>Day 1 - 5 1/2 inch clones put in unit (15 days since taking the cuttings)
>Day 8 - Plants hit the 10" trellis (were topped @ trellis 2 days later)
>Day 20 - Plants put into flowering @ 12/12 (longest shoot avg 16 inches)
>Day 55 - Canopy full, bud heads filling, upward growth has stopped.
>
>On day 20 the canopy was only about 20-25% full.
>
>Variety and technique kinda go hand in hand as far as timing to fill the
>ScrOG canopy. That's really where the art is in using ScrOG, the timing,
>and it takes a little getting used to. This whole subject is still in R&D
>ya know:-) There's much yet to be learned, unfortunately I can only answer
>just one question I might have with each crop, using one variety, with
>fluoros. The variety I use right now isn't Da Exotic (it's a strange
>animal indeed) and has a fairly long internodal length and a long flowering
>time by most standards. On day 106 it will be harvested.
106 days is a lot longer than what I'm used to. My last batch was 79 days, seeds to harvest. I usually go 30 to 50 days 24/7, 50 to 60 12/12.
>
>Perhaps you can tell from the above data that this variety, no matter how
>early it was flowered, would probably still overgrow the trellis if two
>plants were used. As it stands now they're only vegging in the unit for 20
>days before inducing.
>
>Of some Skunk#1 seeds I recently germinated I have one long and one short
>internode plant. The short one has as many internodes as the long one but
>is half the height, a perfect example of slower outward growth from a very
>compact plant. Probably more mainstream than my current variety, but a
>variety I have no experience with. How it will do with the ScrOG I haven't
>the foggiest, but one crop with one plant will let me know if the next crop
>should have two of these plants per 2x4 canopy.
>
>The point I'm trying to make is this. If after one crop I found that the
>short internode SK1 only filled "half" the canopy if flowered on day 20,
>rather than extend the veg period to day 40 (or whatever) I could use two
>plants of that same variety flowered at the same time (day 20) to fill the
>entire canopy. With my current variety it's not worth my time or effort to
>risk overgrowth and increase the plant# count by using two plants in hopes
>of putting them into flowering at say 10 days. The ten day time saving
>doesn't impress me, a 20 or 30 day time saving might IF no overgrowth
>occurred.
20 to 30 days is about how I see it. But that's also because I rarely see systems in 12/12 for 9 weeks. 6 to 7 is more common for me. Now that I have a second system I'll be able to let them go longer, but I used to like getting 'em out and new clones in ASAP. Yeah, I know I'm missing out on a lot of weight, but I pull 'em when 30% of the hairs turn red and before any major degradation in resin glands.
>>>I found that with using fewer plants, aside from dealing with high
>>>numbers of clones and the mothers, it also meant fewer pots and much less
>>>medium to de-root, sterilize, and handle between crops (if you have
>>>reusable medium). One chore I sure was glad to lessen. With disposables
>>>like soil or rockwool you still have to replace and handle it.
>>
>>Joo gots dat right, mang! The biggest job is cleaning the system and
>>medium. Takes a couple of days for a large system. But because each cycle
>>is shorter in SOG, say 70 days from seedling or clone to harvest, it is
>>not necessary to completely sterilize the system each cycle. At least as
>>long as you have good cleanliness habits throughout.
>>
>>Shutting down and cleaning head to toe is only needed every other cycle.
>>Still a major pain in the ass, though.
>
>I totally agree. The real pain is de-rooting and handling the medium.
>hehehe I wonder if this is what people talk about just before they turn to
>a true mediumless NFT system:-) Hmmmmmm..... Maybe a mediumless NFT
>grower would also find ScrOG to be a good technique for anchoring plants.
Actually, I've never had much of a problem derooting. I use Geolite and if you deroot right after cutting, all you have to do is hold the stem and shake. The Geolite just drops out.
The biggest hassle for me is cleaning and processing over 100 gallons of Geolite. I use big trash cans, but it still takes a few batches. As I said before, I've made desigm modifications that allow the use of about a cup and a half per plant vs. 1 gallon.
>
>--snip--
>
>BTW Bud, I may have overlooked what full flow means. Is that the same as
>constant flow?
Yep. Full flow, constant flow, same thing.
>>I regularly see buds over 12" and often 18". Single buds in excess of an
>>ounce each are not uncommon. The next adjustment is identifying and using
>>triploid clones as much as possible. Triploids have 3 off shoots at each
>>petiole instead of 2. They produce MUCH better.
>
>You mean there are 3 shade leaves at each nodesite, as with a whorled
>phylotaxy? If so, I haven't had success with the two plants I've run
>across, and your the first I've heard praise them. One was a slow growing
>male, the other was too scrawny and thin to even bother with. I've heard
>that's par for the course with them. You must've gotten lucky.
Hmmm. No, I guess not. What I mean is at each node, 3 side branches grow instead of 2. Later, after growth has shifted to alternating nodes, braches grow out of 3 sides, not 2 one way, then 2 the other. I have found these plants to yield quite a bit more. I have yet to have one that wasn't a top producer compared to it's limb challenged sybs.
>
>--snip--
>
>>
>>The one area where SOG is a lot more hassle is the number of plants.
>>Takes about 80 plants to fill garden A. I've been using 1 gallon pots in
>>restaurant bus tubs. That's a lot of Geolite! Especially when it's time
>>to wash and rinse it all.
>
>I've changed from chlorine to H2O2 for sterilizing. Costs a bit more but
>it's not toxic to plants and one rinse does it.
The powdered chlorine in pool chems evaporates out of water quite rapidly, 24 to 48 hours. Haven't had a toxicity problem.
>
>--snip--
>
>>But even my relatively simple 2 garden system produces better than 3 lbs
>>per month. Anyone doing that with a comparable ScrOG system? If so, I'd
>>sure like to hear about it.
>
>I don't think there are that many ScrOGgers around yet, at least none with
>comparable equipment. I'm hoping by next summer we'll have heard a lot
>more from those trying ScrOGs on for size with various systems and
>varieties:-) Regardless of the gross yield it's the per sq ft figures that
>one needs to keep an eye on, everything else is a just matter of more sq
>ft. hehehe Space... The Final Frontier.
>
>>
>>I know multi shelf systems can approach this kind of yield, measured by
>>floor space, but I'd argue that a multi shelf system is much more hassle.
>
>I think the hassle is in setting it up and equalizing the fill/drain times
>between upper and lower elevations. Once that's done it's just a matter of
>a step stool to get to the upper shelf canopy. Other than the step stool I
>actually find it more convenient working in an upright position for a
>change:-) Now if there were 20ft ceilings with 4 stacked shelves, hmmm
>that could be a hassle.
I was thinking more the hassle of pruning and training a whole other system. Sounds like twice the daily maintenance.
>>Once the planst are in a system like the one I'm describing, it's pretty
>>much set it and forget it. Maybe add some water or change solution, but
>>otherwise very little work. Hardly even any leaves to pull. I check in at
>>least twice a week, but I could easily get away with once a week or less.
>>
>>BTW, I'll have a YOR for garden A in a few days. I'll give exact figures
>>as soon as I have them. Garden B is 5 weeks away.
>
>Great, send 'em on in.
I posted it today, dissapointing as it was. I shouldn't say dissapointing. I'm thrilled. I just thought it would be more.
Peace,
Bud Gardener
From Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1] Sun Nov 02 02:30:57 1997
Newsgroups: alt.drugs.pot.cultivation
Subject: Re: ScrOG vs SOG and other questions...
From: pH <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>
Date: 2 Nov 1997 07:30:57 -0000
References: <199711020017.BAA08904@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19971102073057.26305.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Bud Gardener wrote:
>
>pH wrote:
>
>>Bud wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:05:56 +0100 (MET), pH wrote:
--snip--
>>On day 106 it will be harvested.
>106 days is a lot longer than what I'm used to. My last batch was 79
>days, seeds to harvest. I usually go 30 to 50 days 24/7, 50 to 60 12/12.
I'm sorry it should have read "day 121" total for the crop in the unit, 101
days flowering. 101 days is still a long time but it sure beats the 140
day variety it replaced:-) No diff in yield, better potency, AND finishes
30 days earlier, it was a real grand slam. Now I'm looking forward to the
SK#1.
You veg for 30 to 50 days, I assume that's from seed. I've always viewed
SOG as being flowered right out of the rooting chamber to keep them short.
--snip--
>
>Actually, I've never had much of a problem derooting. I use Geolite and
>if you deroot right after cutting, all you have to do is hold the stem
>and shake. The Geolite just drops out.
I call that shaking the plant:-) I use Geolite too, there's always those
fine roots that break off and stay with the Geolte. Getting the fine roots
out is what I call de-rooting.
>
>The biggest hassle for me is cleaning and processing over 100 gallons of
>Geolite. I use big trash cans, but it still takes a few batches.
Could it be my "de-rooting", and your "cleaning and processing" are one in
the same?
>As I said before, I've made desigm modifications that allow the use of
>about a cup and a half per plant vs. 1 gallon.
I'm curious, Did you use true ebb/flow when you used 1 gallon of medium,
and changed to full flow when you cut back on the medium?
--snip--
>>>I regularly see buds over 12" and often 18". Single buds in excess of
>>>an ounce each are not uncommon. The next adjustment is identifying and
>>>using triploid clones as much as possible. Triploids have 3 off shoots
>>>at each petiole instead of 2. They produce MUCH better.
>>
>>You mean there are 3 shade leaves at each nodesite, as with a whorled
>>phylotaxy? If so, I haven't had success with the two plants I've run
>>across, and your the first I've heard praise them. One was a slow
>>growing male, the other was too scrawny and thin to even bother with.
>>I've heard that's par for the course with them. You must've gotten
>>lucky.
>
>Hmmm. No, I guess not. What I mean is at each node, 3 side branches grow
>instead of 2.
And each of the side branches has a shade leaf crotch where it grows from,
right?
>Later, after growth has shifted to alternating nodes, braches grow out of
>3 sides, not 2 one way, then 2 the other. I have found these plants to
>yield quite a bit more. I have yet to have one that wasn't a top producer
>compared to it's limb challenged sybs.
That's a whorled phylotaxy to me, very interesting we should have opposite
experiences with those type plants. Do you know the variety of the plant?
--snip--
>>>I know multi shelf systems can approach this kind of yield, measured by
>>>floor space, but I'd argue that a multi shelf system is much more
>>>hassle.
>>
>>I think the hassle is in setting it up and equalizing the fill/drain
>>times between upper and lower elevations. Once that's done it's just a
>>matter of a step stool to get to the upper shelf canopy. Other than the
>>step stool I actually find it more convenient working in an upright
>>position for a change:-) Now if there were 20ft ceilings with 4 stacked
>>shelves, hmmm that could be a hassle.
>
>I was thinking more the hassle of pruning and training a whole other
>system. Sounds like twice the daily maintenance.
hehehe You see it as two systems, I see it as one system in two halves:-)
Six of one, half a dozen of another. Square feets is square feets is
square feets whether they be side-by-side or one above the other, or maybe
I missing your point.
--snip--
>I posted it today, dissapointing as it was. I shouldn't say
>dissapointing. I'm thrilled. I just thought it would be more.
How does the tomato bloom treated Blueberry taste compared to the
non-treated?
pH
>
>Peace,
>
>Bud Gardener
From nobody@REPLAY.COM Sun Nov 02 14:32:10 1997
Newsgroups: alt.drugs.pot.cultivation
Subject: Re: ScrOG vs SOG and other questions...
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 20:32:10 +0100 (MET)
Message-ID: <199711021932.UAA02885@basement.replay.com>
pH wrote:
>
>
>Bud Gardener wrote:
>>
>>pH wrote:
>>
>>>Bud wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:05:56 +0100 (MET), pH wrote:
>
>--snip--
>
>>>On day 106 it will be harvested.
>
>>106 days is a lot longer than what I'm used to. My last batch was 79
>>days, seeds to harvest. I usually go 30 to 50 days 24/7, 50 to 60 12/12.
>
>I'm sorry it should have read "day 121" total for the crop in the unit, 101
>days flowering. 101 days is still a long time but it sure beats the 140
>day variety it replaced:-) No diff in yield, better potency, AND finishes
>30 days earlier, it was a real grand slam. Now I'm looking forward to the
>SK#1.
>
>You veg for 30 to 50 days, I assume that's from seed. I've always viewed
>SOG as being flowered right out of the rooting chamber to keep them short.
Yeah, from seed. From clone it's straight to 12/12 as soon as they are well rooted in the system. Cuts the total cycle by another couple of weeks.
>
>--snip--
>Could it be my "de-rooting", and your "cleaning and processing" are one in
>the same?
I don't specifically bother with the tiny roots left in the medium or the few pieces of medium left in the root mats. I first rinse, then soak overnight in a chlorine solution, then rinse twice more. I then put the medium in the system and let it run for a few days, changing the water every day. When I can't smell any chlorine I add the new plants. Haven't had a toxicity or contamination problem yet.
>>As I said before, I've made desigm modifications that allow the use of
>>about a cup and a half per plant vs. 1 gallon.
>
>I'm curious, Did you use true ebb/flow when you used 1 gallon of medium,
>and changed to full flow when you cut back on the medium?
No, I was always using full flow. The new design is better suited for full flow, though. Where most of the root growth used to take place in the pots, with a few sticking out, now almost all root growth is outside of the pots in the solution. The only drawback is it makes it slightly harder to move plants around the system.
>
>--snip--
>
>
>>>>I regularly see buds over 12" and often 18". Single buds in excess of
>>>>an ounce each are not uncommon. The next adjustment is identifying and
>>>>using triploid clones as much as possible. Triploids have 3 off shoots
>>>>at each petiole instead of 2. They produce MUCH better.
>>>
>>>You mean there are 3 shade leaves at each nodesite, as with a whorled
>>>phylotaxy? If so, I haven't had success with the two plants I've run
>>>across, and your the first I've heard praise them. One was a slow
>>>growing male, the other was too scrawny and thin to even bother with.
>>>I've heard that's par for the course with them. You must've gotten
>>>lucky.
>>
>>Hmmm. No, I guess not. What I mean is at each node, 3 side branches grow
>>instead of 2.
>
>And each of the side branches has a shade leaf crotch where it grows from,
>right?
Sometimes. I don't usually see a shade leaf on the main stalk at each and every internode.
>>Later, after growth has shifted to alternating nodes, braches grow out of
>>3 sides, not 2 one way, then 2 the other. I have found these plants to
>>yield quite a bit more. I have yet to have one that wasn't a top producer
>>compared to it's limb challenged sybs.
>
>That's a whorled phylotaxy to me, very interesting we should have opposite
>experiences with those type plants. Do you know the variety of the plant?
Yep, whorled phylotaxy it is. The plant is a bluberry strain from a few years ago. It produces 2 genotypes. One is a pure blueberry, the other more of a haze kind of thing, probably a genetic throw back. The sworls show mostly on the haze type.
>
>--snip--
>hehehe You see it as two systems, I see it as one system in two halves:-)
>Six of one, half a dozen of another. Square feets is square feets is
>square feets whether they be side-by-side or one above the other, or maybe
>I missing your point.
I meant the extra work to maintain the extra growing space, whether it is one or two systems.
>--snip--
>
>>I posted it today, dissapointing as it was. I shouldn't say
>>dissapointing. I'm thrilled. I just thought it would be more.
>
>How does the tomato bloom treated Blueberry taste compared to the
>non-treated?
No difference. Same fruity nose. Same fruity taste. Same mind numbing high. The last treatment was 4 weeks before harvest, so there was no residue left. Next time I'll try a little more aggressive treatment schedule, but I'll still stop treating as soon as buds are solidly formed.
Pax,
Bud
From Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1] Tue Oct 28 00:14:07 1997
Newsgroups: alt.drugs.pot.cultivation
Subject: What does ScrOG mean?
From: pH <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>
Date: 28 Oct 1997 05:14:07 -0000
Message-ID: <19971028051407.11533.qmail@nym.alias.net>
On 28 Oct 1997 01:08:22 +0100, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) wrote:
>What does scrog stand for?
>I searched dejanews and can't figure it out.
>I know what SOG stands for.
>WHat does scrog mean?
>SOmebody, please enlighten me.
>Thank you.
hehehe Such a delightful sounding word eh?
ScrOG means "Screen Of Green".
pH
From Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1] Tue Oct 28 13:39:45 1997
Newsgroups: alt.drugs.pot.cultivation
Subject: ScrOG vs SOG and other questions...
From: The Swamp Skeeter <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>
Date: 28 Oct 1997 18:39:45 -0000
Message-ID: <19971028183945.19347.qmail@nym.alias.net>
A few more questions. I thought that you
only needed 1 plant/sqr ft for SOG. Do
you actually need 3-4/sqr ft?
Also, where would one find information on
the ScrOG technique? I think I understand
it, but pictures of such a setup would help
clarify things for me. Or possibly an
indepth description of the process.
In ScrOG, do you train the plant during veg,
and then go to flowering, or do you train
the plant during flowering? How long would
it take to train a plant to fill a 3'x3'
space?( I know that this is dependent on the
growth rate, but in general ).
Does anyone out there use SOG over ScrOG? If
so, what are your reasons for this choice???
--
Swamp
From Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1] Tue Oct 28 18:03:54 1997
Newsgroups: alt.drugs.pot.cultivation
Subject: Re: ScrOG vs SOG and other questions...
From: pH <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>
Date: 28 Oct 1997 23:03:54 -0000
References: <19971028183945.19347.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <19971028230354.19025.qmail@nym.alias.net>
The Swamp Skeeter <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
>
>A few more questions. I thought that you
>only needed 1 plant/sqr ft for SOG. Do
>you actually need 3-4/sqr ft?
That may be so. I believe I've heard of SOGgers using more than that
though. I could be wrong. I would suspect it might depend to some extent
on the variety.
>
>Also, where would one find information on
>the ScrOG technique? I think I understand
>it, but pictures of such a setup would help
>clarify things for me.
Try this.
http://www.lycaeum.org/~npkaye/multishelf.html Multishelf & Trellis(ScrOG)
>Or possibly an indepth description of the process.
Plenty at that site, but I'll include what I have below.
>
>In ScrOG, do you train the plant during veg,
>and then go to flowering, or do you train
>the plant during flowering?
You train as long as there is outward growth. For most varieties this
occurs up to and during flowering up to a certain point. RC Clarke details
each step of flowering growth in MJ Botany.
> How long would
>it take to train a plant to fill a 3'x3'
>space?( I know that this is dependent on the
>growth rate, but in general ).
For a 2 x 4 foot trellis, from the day the single plant was put into the
flowering unit (appx 6 inch clones) it took 55 days to fill the 8 sq ft
canopy to the point where upward growth stopped (timing was right). At
that point the plants have been in flowering for 35 days (induction was on
day 20 in the unit). As you say it will depend on variety.
>
>Does anyone out there use SOG over ScrOG? If
>so, what are your reasons for this choice???
>
>--
>
>Swamp
>
---snip---
>>I think you'll find it's the canopy size and lighting that determine the
>>demand on the media. If you grow one plant it will have a very thick
>>stem and a large root structure to match the demands of the canopy. If
>>you grow many plants, each stem will be thinner (and root structure
>>smaller) because each plant is only using a fraction of the canopy.
>>
>OK so your saying I can have one bushie plant or several thin ones.
>Will I get more yeild from the one bushie one or several thinner ones?
>
>Later Me>
Depends how you expose them to the light, they each have a different
profile. One lends itself to a flat horizontal plane, the other to an
inverted "V" (xmas tree) profile. You didn't think it would be simple, did
you?
Some grow with the "Sea of Green" method (many plants in a vertical garden)
because: a) more plants can be induced sooner (preferably clones) because
you'll want them to be smaller and narrower, b)many plants over a given sq.
ft. area are easier to keep equdistant from the light than one typical
xmass tree shaped plant, c)huge impressive top colas can be harvested from
the cramped narrow plants.
Some (as myself with fluoro) grow with the "Screen of Green" method (few
plants in a horizontal trellised garden) because: a) one plant can be
trained to grow horizontally to fill the canopy AND have all its buds
equidistant from the light (unlike the xmas tree shape), b)taking one clone
is less work than taking many, c) although not as huge top colas are
harvested, quality would be the same, and yield may be more in my opinion
(all other things being equal).
If your pot is 15" X 22" X 18" a soil grower may be able to give you better
advice than I could as to its worth with a 400W HID when only that pot is
used, you may need more pots. I'm saying given the same lighting
conditions and canopy area that one plant OR many would place very similar
demands from the soil in the pot. It's the canopy size and the amount of
light hitting those leaves that determines what will be needed from the
soil, not the number of plants.
--snip--
--snip--
From nobody@REPLAY.COM Tue Oct 28 19:20:07 1997
Newsgroups: alt.drugs.pot.cultivation
Subject: Re: ScrOG vs SOG and other questions...
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:20:07 +0100 (MET)
Message-ID: <199710290020.BAA04790@basement.replay.com>
>A few more questions. I thought that you
>only needed 1 plant/sqr ft for SOG. Do
>you actually need 3-4/sqr ft?
I've seen 2 SOG systems recently. The first is about 110 sq ft and was originally designed to hold 192 plants, 8 per restaurant bus tub under two 1000 watt HIDs. This turned out to be too many plants. The system was modified to hold 6 per tub, or 144, but ended up with a full canopy with about 90 plants. HUGE buds. Yielded about 5 lbs. Could've been a lot more, but they were cut a week or two early for unavoidable reasons.
The other system is only about 48 sq ft under one 1000 watt HID, but is fitted for 120 plants. There hasn't been a harvest yet, but those babies are starting to look mighty crowded. Still, everyone looks healthy and happy. Will report results.
The second system
>
>Also, where would one find information on
>the ScrOG technique? I think I understand
>it, but pictures of such a setup would help
>clarify things for me. Or possibly an
>indepth description of the process.
>
>In ScrOG, do you train the plant during veg,
>and then go to flowering, or do you train
>the plant during flowering? How long would
>it take to train a plant to fill a 3'x3'
>space?( I know that this is dependent on the
>growth rate, but in general ).
>
>Does anyone out there use SOG over ScrOG? If
>so, what are your reasons for this choice???
See some of the other ScrOG vs. SOG posts for answers to your other questions.
Bud
From Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1] Wed Oct 29 18:48:32 1997
Newsgroups: alt.drugs.pot.cultivation
Subject: Where did Scrog originate, and what web sites has info?
From: pH <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>
Date: 29 Oct 1997 23:48:32 -0000
Message-ID: <19971029234832.20496.qmail@nym.alias.net>
j-doe@flunk-u.edu wrote:
>
> Could someone please detail, or point me to a resource that could
>detail for me, the ScrOG method. I have heard a lot about it in the adpc
>lately, but no detailed methodical descriptions on how to go about it. I
>am interested in a strictly personal garden so that I never have to buy
>again and from what I have heard this is the method of choice. Any and
>all help would be much appreciated.
>
>Joey JoJo Junior Shabadoo
I wouldn't say it's the method of choice for all readers of this NG. It's
fairly new so there isn't much available on it except what you read here.
The idea was gotten from RC CLarkes book MJ Botany, then applied as an
indoor gardening technique. Try these for more detailed info.
Multishelf & Trellis(ScrOG)
http://www.lycaeum.org/~npkaye/multishelf.html
--snip--
pH
Newsgroups: alt.drugs.pot.cultivation
Subject: Re: ScrOG vs SOG and other questions...
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:17:46 +0100 (MET)
Message-ID: <199711020017.BAA08904@basement.replay.com>
pH wrote:
>Bud wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:05:56 +0100 (MET), pH wrote:
>>>
>
><snip>
>
>>I've gotten around the need for keeping multiple mothers. Details to
>>follow. But I think you also need to add into the equation the extra time
>>needed for fewer plants to fill a ScrOG canopy.
>
>The extra time I understand as meaning veg time.
Yes.
>About 75-80% of the canopy is actually filled 'during' flowering. At least
>with the varieties I've used (from stash seed) this has always been the
>case. I just checked some notes, here's a brief chronology for two plants,
>each with a 2x4ft canopy to fill:
>
>Day 1 - 5 1/2 inch clones put in unit (15 days since taking the cuttings)
>Day 8 - Plants hit the 10" trellis (were topped @ trellis 2 days later)
>Day 20 - Plants put into flowering @ 12/12 (longest shoot avg 16 inches)
>Day 55 - Canopy full, bud heads filling, upward growth has stopped.
>
>On day 20 the canopy was only about 20-25% full.
>
>Variety and technique kinda go hand in hand as far as timing to fill the
>ScrOG canopy. That's really where the art is in using ScrOG, the timing,
>and it takes a little getting used to. This whole subject is still in R&D
>ya know:-) There's much yet to be learned, unfortunately I can only answer
>just one question I might have with each crop, using one variety, with
>fluoros. The variety I use right now isn't Da Exotic (it's a strange
>animal indeed) and has a fairly long internodal length and a long flowering
>time by most standards. On day 106 it will be harvested.
106 days is a lot longer than what I'm used to. My last batch was 79 days, seeds to harvest. I usually go 30 to 50 days 24/7, 50 to 60 12/12.
>
>Perhaps you can tell from the above data that this variety, no matter how
>early it was flowered, would probably still overgrow the trellis if two
>plants were used. As it stands now they're only vegging in the unit for 20
>days before inducing.
>
>Of some Skunk#1 seeds I recently germinated I have one long and one short
>internode plant. The short one has as many internodes as the long one but
>is half the height, a perfect example of slower outward growth from a very
>compact plant. Probably more mainstream than my current variety, but a
>variety I have no experience with. How it will do with the ScrOG I haven't
>the foggiest, but one crop with one plant will let me know if the next crop
>should have two of these plants per 2x4 canopy.
>
>The point I'm trying to make is this. If after one crop I found that the
>short internode SK1 only filled "half" the canopy if flowered on day 20,
>rather than extend the veg period to day 40 (or whatever) I could use two
>plants of that same variety flowered at the same time (day 20) to fill the
>entire canopy. With my current variety it's not worth my time or effort to
>risk overgrowth and increase the plant# count by using two plants in hopes
>of putting them into flowering at say 10 days. The ten day time saving
>doesn't impress me, a 20 or 30 day time saving might IF no overgrowth
>occurred.
20 to 30 days is about how I see it. But that's also because I rarely see systems in 12/12 for 9 weeks. 6 to 7 is more common for me. Now that I have a second system I'll be able to let them go longer, but I used to like getting 'em out and new clones in ASAP. Yeah, I know I'm missing out on a lot of weight, but I pull 'em when 30% of the hairs turn red and before any major degradation in resin glands.
>>>I found that with using fewer plants, aside from dealing with high
>>>numbers of clones and the mothers, it also meant fewer pots and much less
>>>medium to de-root, sterilize, and handle between crops (if you have
>>>reusable medium). One chore I sure was glad to lessen. With disposables
>>>like soil or rockwool you still have to replace and handle it.
>>
>>Joo gots dat right, mang! The biggest job is cleaning the system and
>>medium. Takes a couple of days for a large system. But because each cycle
>>is shorter in SOG, say 70 days from seedling or clone to harvest, it is
>>not necessary to completely sterilize the system each cycle. At least as
>>long as you have good cleanliness habits throughout.
>>
>>Shutting down and cleaning head to toe is only needed every other cycle.
>>Still a major pain in the ass, though.
>
>I totally agree. The real pain is de-rooting and handling the medium.
>hehehe I wonder if this is what people talk about just before they turn to
>a true mediumless NFT system:-) Hmmmmmm..... Maybe a mediumless NFT
>grower would also find ScrOG to be a good technique for anchoring plants.
Actually, I've never had much of a problem derooting. I use Geolite and if you deroot right after cutting, all you have to do is hold the stem and shake. The Geolite just drops out.
The biggest hassle for me is cleaning and processing over 100 gallons of Geolite. I use big trash cans, but it still takes a few batches. As I said before, I've made desigm modifications that allow the use of about a cup and a half per plant vs. 1 gallon.
>
>--snip--
>
>BTW Bud, I may have overlooked what full flow means. Is that the same as
>constant flow?
Yep. Full flow, constant flow, same thing.
>>I regularly see buds over 12" and often 18". Single buds in excess of an
>>ounce each are not uncommon. The next adjustment is identifying and using
>>triploid clones as much as possible. Triploids have 3 off shoots at each
>>petiole instead of 2. They produce MUCH better.
>
>You mean there are 3 shade leaves at each nodesite, as with a whorled
>phylotaxy? If so, I haven't had success with the two plants I've run
>across, and your the first I've heard praise them. One was a slow growing
>male, the other was too scrawny and thin to even bother with. I've heard
>that's par for the course with them. You must've gotten lucky.
Hmmm. No, I guess not. What I mean is at each node, 3 side branches grow instead of 2. Later, after growth has shifted to alternating nodes, braches grow out of 3 sides, not 2 one way, then 2 the other. I have found these plants to yield quite a bit more. I have yet to have one that wasn't a top producer compared to it's limb challenged sybs.
>
>--snip--
>
>>
>>The one area where SOG is a lot more hassle is the number of plants.
>>Takes about 80 plants to fill garden A. I've been using 1 gallon pots in
>>restaurant bus tubs. That's a lot of Geolite! Especially when it's time
>>to wash and rinse it all.
>
>I've changed from chlorine to H2O2 for sterilizing. Costs a bit more but
>it's not toxic to plants and one rinse does it.
The powdered chlorine in pool chems evaporates out of water quite rapidly, 24 to 48 hours. Haven't had a toxicity problem.
>
>--snip--
>
>>But even my relatively simple 2 garden system produces better than 3 lbs
>>per month. Anyone doing that with a comparable ScrOG system? If so, I'd
>>sure like to hear about it.
>
>I don't think there are that many ScrOGgers around yet, at least none with
>comparable equipment. I'm hoping by next summer we'll have heard a lot
>more from those trying ScrOGs on for size with various systems and
>varieties:-) Regardless of the gross yield it's the per sq ft figures that
>one needs to keep an eye on, everything else is a just matter of more sq
>ft. hehehe Space... The Final Frontier.
>
>>
>>I know multi shelf systems can approach this kind of yield, measured by
>>floor space, but I'd argue that a multi shelf system is much more hassle.
>
>I think the hassle is in setting it up and equalizing the fill/drain times
>between upper and lower elevations. Once that's done it's just a matter of
>a step stool to get to the upper shelf canopy. Other than the step stool I
>actually find it more convenient working in an upright position for a
>change:-) Now if there were 20ft ceilings with 4 stacked shelves, hmmm
>that could be a hassle.
I was thinking more the hassle of pruning and training a whole other system. Sounds like twice the daily maintenance.
>>Once the planst are in a system like the one I'm describing, it's pretty
>>much set it and forget it. Maybe add some water or change solution, but
>>otherwise very little work. Hardly even any leaves to pull. I check in at
>>least twice a week, but I could easily get away with once a week or less.
>>
>>BTW, I'll have a YOR for garden A in a few days. I'll give exact figures
>>as soon as I have them. Garden B is 5 weeks away.
>
>Great, send 'em on in.
I posted it today, dissapointing as it was. I shouldn't say dissapointing. I'm thrilled. I just thought it would be more.
Peace,
Bud Gardener
From Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1] Sun Nov 02 02:30:57 1997
Newsgroups: alt.drugs.pot.cultivation
Subject: Re: ScrOG vs SOG and other questions...
From: pH <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>
Date: 2 Nov 1997 07:30:57 -0000
References: <199711020017.BAA08904@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19971102073057.26305.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Bud Gardener wrote:
>
>pH wrote:
>
>>Bud wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:05:56 +0100 (MET), pH wrote:
--snip--
>>On day 106 it will be harvested.
>106 days is a lot longer than what I'm used to. My last batch was 79
>days, seeds to harvest. I usually go 30 to 50 days 24/7, 50 to 60 12/12.
I'm sorry it should have read "day 121" total for the crop in the unit, 101
days flowering. 101 days is still a long time but it sure beats the 140
day variety it replaced:-) No diff in yield, better potency, AND finishes
30 days earlier, it was a real grand slam. Now I'm looking forward to the
SK#1.
You veg for 30 to 50 days, I assume that's from seed. I've always viewed
SOG as being flowered right out of the rooting chamber to keep them short.
--snip--
>
>Actually, I've never had much of a problem derooting. I use Geolite and
>if you deroot right after cutting, all you have to do is hold the stem
>and shake. The Geolite just drops out.
I call that shaking the plant:-) I use Geolite too, there's always those
fine roots that break off and stay with the Geolte. Getting the fine roots
out is what I call de-rooting.
>
>The biggest hassle for me is cleaning and processing over 100 gallons of
>Geolite. I use big trash cans, but it still takes a few batches.
Could it be my "de-rooting", and your "cleaning and processing" are one in
the same?
>As I said before, I've made desigm modifications that allow the use of
>about a cup and a half per plant vs. 1 gallon.
I'm curious, Did you use true ebb/flow when you used 1 gallon of medium,
and changed to full flow when you cut back on the medium?
--snip--
>>>I regularly see buds over 12" and often 18". Single buds in excess of
>>>an ounce each are not uncommon. The next adjustment is identifying and
>>>using triploid clones as much as possible. Triploids have 3 off shoots
>>>at each petiole instead of 2. They produce MUCH better.
>>
>>You mean there are 3 shade leaves at each nodesite, as with a whorled
>>phylotaxy? If so, I haven't had success with the two plants I've run
>>across, and your the first I've heard praise them. One was a slow
>>growing male, the other was too scrawny and thin to even bother with.
>>I've heard that's par for the course with them. You must've gotten
>>lucky.
>
>Hmmm. No, I guess not. What I mean is at each node, 3 side branches grow
>instead of 2.
And each of the side branches has a shade leaf crotch where it grows from,
right?
>Later, after growth has shifted to alternating nodes, braches grow out of
>3 sides, not 2 one way, then 2 the other. I have found these plants to
>yield quite a bit more. I have yet to have one that wasn't a top producer
>compared to it's limb challenged sybs.
That's a whorled phylotaxy to me, very interesting we should have opposite
experiences with those type plants. Do you know the variety of the plant?
--snip--
>>>I know multi shelf systems can approach this kind of yield, measured by
>>>floor space, but I'd argue that a multi shelf system is much more
>>>hassle.
>>
>>I think the hassle is in setting it up and equalizing the fill/drain
>>times between upper and lower elevations. Once that's done it's just a
>>matter of a step stool to get to the upper shelf canopy. Other than the
>>step stool I actually find it more convenient working in an upright
>>position for a change:-) Now if there were 20ft ceilings with 4 stacked
>>shelves, hmmm that could be a hassle.
>
>I was thinking more the hassle of pruning and training a whole other
>system. Sounds like twice the daily maintenance.
hehehe You see it as two systems, I see it as one system in two halves:-)
Six of one, half a dozen of another. Square feets is square feets is
square feets whether they be side-by-side or one above the other, or maybe
I missing your point.
--snip--
>I posted it today, dissapointing as it was. I shouldn't say
>dissapointing. I'm thrilled. I just thought it would be more.
How does the tomato bloom treated Blueberry taste compared to the
non-treated?
pH
>
>Peace,
>
>Bud Gardener
From nobody@REPLAY.COM Sun Nov 02 14:32:10 1997
Newsgroups: alt.drugs.pot.cultivation
Subject: Re: ScrOG vs SOG and other questions...
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 20:32:10 +0100 (MET)
Message-ID: <199711021932.UAA02885@basement.replay.com>
pH wrote:
>
>
>Bud Gardener wrote:
>>
>>pH wrote:
>>
>>>Bud wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:05:56 +0100 (MET), pH wrote:
>
>--snip--
>
>>>On day 106 it will be harvested.
>
>>106 days is a lot longer than what I'm used to. My last batch was 79
>>days, seeds to harvest. I usually go 30 to 50 days 24/7, 50 to 60 12/12.
>
>I'm sorry it should have read "day 121" total for the crop in the unit, 101
>days flowering. 101 days is still a long time but it sure beats the 140
>day variety it replaced:-) No diff in yield, better potency, AND finishes
>30 days earlier, it was a real grand slam. Now I'm looking forward to the
>SK#1.
>
>You veg for 30 to 50 days, I assume that's from seed. I've always viewed
>SOG as being flowered right out of the rooting chamber to keep them short.
Yeah, from seed. From clone it's straight to 12/12 as soon as they are well rooted in the system. Cuts the total cycle by another couple of weeks.
>
>--snip--
>Could it be my "de-rooting", and your "cleaning and processing" are one in
>the same?
I don't specifically bother with the tiny roots left in the medium or the few pieces of medium left in the root mats. I first rinse, then soak overnight in a chlorine solution, then rinse twice more. I then put the medium in the system and let it run for a few days, changing the water every day. When I can't smell any chlorine I add the new plants. Haven't had a toxicity or contamination problem yet.
>>As I said before, I've made desigm modifications that allow the use of
>>about a cup and a half per plant vs. 1 gallon.
>
>I'm curious, Did you use true ebb/flow when you used 1 gallon of medium,
>and changed to full flow when you cut back on the medium?
No, I was always using full flow. The new design is better suited for full flow, though. Where most of the root growth used to take place in the pots, with a few sticking out, now almost all root growth is outside of the pots in the solution. The only drawback is it makes it slightly harder to move plants around the system.
>
>--snip--
>
>
>>>>I regularly see buds over 12" and often 18". Single buds in excess of
>>>>an ounce each are not uncommon. The next adjustment is identifying and
>>>>using triploid clones as much as possible. Triploids have 3 off shoots
>>>>at each petiole instead of 2. They produce MUCH better.
>>>
>>>You mean there are 3 shade leaves at each nodesite, as with a whorled
>>>phylotaxy? If so, I haven't had success with the two plants I've run
>>>across, and your the first I've heard praise them. One was a slow
>>>growing male, the other was too scrawny and thin to even bother with.
>>>I've heard that's par for the course with them. You must've gotten
>>>lucky.
>>
>>Hmmm. No, I guess not. What I mean is at each node, 3 side branches grow
>>instead of 2.
>
>And each of the side branches has a shade leaf crotch where it grows from,
>right?
Sometimes. I don't usually see a shade leaf on the main stalk at each and every internode.
>>Later, after growth has shifted to alternating nodes, braches grow out of
>>3 sides, not 2 one way, then 2 the other. I have found these plants to
>>yield quite a bit more. I have yet to have one that wasn't a top producer
>>compared to it's limb challenged sybs.
>
>That's a whorled phylotaxy to me, very interesting we should have opposite
>experiences with those type plants. Do you know the variety of the plant?
Yep, whorled phylotaxy it is. The plant is a bluberry strain from a few years ago. It produces 2 genotypes. One is a pure blueberry, the other more of a haze kind of thing, probably a genetic throw back. The sworls show mostly on the haze type.
>
>--snip--
>hehehe You see it as two systems, I see it as one system in two halves:-)
>Six of one, half a dozen of another. Square feets is square feets is
>square feets whether they be side-by-side or one above the other, or maybe
>I missing your point.
I meant the extra work to maintain the extra growing space, whether it is one or two systems.
>--snip--
>
>>I posted it today, dissapointing as it was. I shouldn't say
>>dissapointing. I'm thrilled. I just thought it would be more.
>
>How does the tomato bloom treated Blueberry taste compared to the
>non-treated?
No difference. Same fruity nose. Same fruity taste. Same mind numbing high. The last treatment was 4 weeks before harvest, so there was no residue left. Next time I'll try a little more aggressive treatment schedule, but I'll still stop treating as soon as buds are solidly formed.
Pax,
Bud
From Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1] Tue Oct 28 00:14:07 1997
Newsgroups: alt.drugs.pot.cultivation
Subject: What does ScrOG mean?
From: pH <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>
Date: 28 Oct 1997 05:14:07 -0000
Message-ID: <19971028051407.11533.qmail@nym.alias.net>
On 28 Oct 1997 01:08:22 +0100, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) wrote:
>What does scrog stand for?
>I searched dejanews and can't figure it out.
>I know what SOG stands for.
>WHat does scrog mean?
>SOmebody, please enlighten me.
>Thank you.
hehehe Such a delightful sounding word eh?
ScrOG means "Screen Of Green".
pH
From Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1] Tue Oct 28 13:39:45 1997
Newsgroups: alt.drugs.pot.cultivation
Subject: ScrOG vs SOG and other questions...
From: The Swamp Skeeter <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>
Date: 28 Oct 1997 18:39:45 -0000
Message-ID: <19971028183945.19347.qmail@nym.alias.net>
A few more questions. I thought that you
only needed 1 plant/sqr ft for SOG. Do
you actually need 3-4/sqr ft?
Also, where would one find information on
the ScrOG technique? I think I understand
it, but pictures of such a setup would help
clarify things for me. Or possibly an
indepth description of the process.
In ScrOG, do you train the plant during veg,
and then go to flowering, or do you train
the plant during flowering? How long would
it take to train a plant to fill a 3'x3'
space?( I know that this is dependent on the
growth rate, but in general ).
Does anyone out there use SOG over ScrOG? If
so, what are your reasons for this choice???
--
Swamp
From Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1] Tue Oct 28 18:03:54 1997
Newsgroups: alt.drugs.pot.cultivation
Subject: Re: ScrOG vs SOG and other questions...
From: pH <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>
Date: 28 Oct 1997 23:03:54 -0000
References: <19971028183945.19347.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Message-ID: <19971028230354.19025.qmail@nym.alias.net>
The Swamp Skeeter <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:
>
>A few more questions. I thought that you
>only needed 1 plant/sqr ft for SOG. Do
>you actually need 3-4/sqr ft?
That may be so. I believe I've heard of SOGgers using more than that
though. I could be wrong. I would suspect it might depend to some extent
on the variety.
>
>Also, where would one find information on
>the ScrOG technique? I think I understand
>it, but pictures of such a setup would help
>clarify things for me.
Try this.
http://www.lycaeum.org/~npkaye/multishelf.html Multishelf & Trellis(ScrOG)
>Or possibly an indepth description of the process.
Plenty at that site, but I'll include what I have below.
>
>In ScrOG, do you train the plant during veg,
>and then go to flowering, or do you train
>the plant during flowering?
You train as long as there is outward growth. For most varieties this
occurs up to and during flowering up to a certain point. RC Clarke details
each step of flowering growth in MJ Botany.
> How long would
>it take to train a plant to fill a 3'x3'
>space?( I know that this is dependent on the
>growth rate, but in general ).
For a 2 x 4 foot trellis, from the day the single plant was put into the
flowering unit (appx 6 inch clones) it took 55 days to fill the 8 sq ft
canopy to the point where upward growth stopped (timing was right). At
that point the plants have been in flowering for 35 days (induction was on
day 20 in the unit). As you say it will depend on variety.
>
>Does anyone out there use SOG over ScrOG? If
>so, what are your reasons for this choice???
>
>--
>
>Swamp
>
---snip---
>>I think you'll find it's the canopy size and lighting that determine the
>>demand on the media. If you grow one plant it will have a very thick
>>stem and a large root structure to match the demands of the canopy. If
>>you grow many plants, each stem will be thinner (and root structure
>>smaller) because each plant is only using a fraction of the canopy.
>>
>OK so your saying I can have one bushie plant or several thin ones.
>Will I get more yeild from the one bushie one or several thinner ones?
>
>Later Me>
Depends how you expose them to the light, they each have a different
profile. One lends itself to a flat horizontal plane, the other to an
inverted "V" (xmas tree) profile. You didn't think it would be simple, did
you?
Some grow with the "Sea of Green" method (many plants in a vertical garden)
because: a) more plants can be induced sooner (preferably clones) because
you'll want them to be smaller and narrower, b)many plants over a given sq.
ft. area are easier to keep equdistant from the light than one typical
xmass tree shaped plant, c)huge impressive top colas can be harvested from
the cramped narrow plants.
Some (as myself with fluoro) grow with the "Screen of Green" method (few
plants in a horizontal trellised garden) because: a) one plant can be
trained to grow horizontally to fill the canopy AND have all its buds
equidistant from the light (unlike the xmas tree shape), b)taking one clone
is less work than taking many, c) although not as huge top colas are
harvested, quality would be the same, and yield may be more in my opinion
(all other things being equal).
If your pot is 15" X 22" X 18" a soil grower may be able to give you better
advice than I could as to its worth with a 400W HID when only that pot is
used, you may need more pots. I'm saying given the same lighting
conditions and canopy area that one plant OR many would place very similar
demands from the soil in the pot. It's the canopy size and the amount of
light hitting those leaves that determines what will be needed from the
soil, not the number of plants.
--snip--
--snip--
From nobody@REPLAY.COM Tue Oct 28 19:20:07 1997
Newsgroups: alt.drugs.pot.cultivation
Subject: Re: ScrOG vs SOG and other questions...
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:20:07 +0100 (MET)
Message-ID: <199710290020.BAA04790@basement.replay.com>
>A few more questions. I thought that you
>only needed 1 plant/sqr ft for SOG. Do
>you actually need 3-4/sqr ft?
I've seen 2 SOG systems recently. The first is about 110 sq ft and was originally designed to hold 192 plants, 8 per restaurant bus tub under two 1000 watt HIDs. This turned out to be too many plants. The system was modified to hold 6 per tub, or 144, but ended up with a full canopy with about 90 plants. HUGE buds. Yielded about 5 lbs. Could've been a lot more, but they were cut a week or two early for unavoidable reasons.
The other system is only about 48 sq ft under one 1000 watt HID, but is fitted for 120 plants. There hasn't been a harvest yet, but those babies are starting to look mighty crowded. Still, everyone looks healthy and happy. Will report results.
The second system
>
>Also, where would one find information on
>the ScrOG technique? I think I understand
>it, but pictures of such a setup would help
>clarify things for me. Or possibly an
>indepth description of the process.
>
>In ScrOG, do you train the plant during veg,
>and then go to flowering, or do you train
>the plant during flowering? How long would
>it take to train a plant to fill a 3'x3'
>space?( I know that this is dependent on the
>growth rate, but in general ).
>
>Does anyone out there use SOG over ScrOG? If
>so, what are your reasons for this choice???
See some of the other ScrOG vs. SOG posts for answers to your other questions.
Bud
From Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1] Wed Oct 29 18:48:32 1997
Newsgroups: alt.drugs.pot.cultivation
Subject: Where did Scrog originate, and what web sites has info?
From: pH <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>
Date: 29 Oct 1997 23:48:32 -0000
Message-ID: <19971029234832.20496.qmail@nym.alias.net>
j-doe@flunk-u.edu wrote:
>
> Could someone please detail, or point me to a resource that could
>detail for me, the ScrOG method. I have heard a lot about it in the adpc
>lately, but no detailed methodical descriptions on how to go about it. I
>am interested in a strictly personal garden so that I never have to buy
>again and from what I have heard this is the method of choice. Any and
>all help would be much appreciated.
>
>Joey JoJo Junior Shabadoo
I wouldn't say it's the method of choice for all readers of this NG. It's
fairly new so there isn't much available on it except what you read here.
The idea was gotten from RC CLarkes book MJ Botany, then applied as an
indoor gardening technique. Try these for more detailed info.
Multishelf & Trellis(ScrOG)
http://www.lycaeum.org/~npkaye/multishelf.html
--snip--
pH
Where Scrog Started ,Posts from the originals Scroggers From 97 Part 3
From nobody@REPLAY.COM Thu Oct 30 16:24:48 1997
Newsgroups: alt.drugs.pot.cultivation
Subject: Re: ScrOG vs SOG and other questions...
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 22:24:48 +0100 (MET)
Message-ID: <199710302124.WAA29966@basement.replay.com>
>On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:05:56 +0100 (MET), pH wrote:
>
<snip>
>>I've been watching this discussion with interest for a while. I'd have to
>agree, ScrOG is the better system for the hobbyist. But in large gardens,
>100 sq ft and up, I only see it as an advantage if there is a height
>limitation. You gotta love getting armloads of 18" long buds as big around
>as your arm!
>
>Bucket fulls of 8 inchers aint bad either:-) I gotta admit I don't know
>what kind of buds ScrOG would produce if it was used with the same light
>and plant that was used to produce the 18" buds. All my personal
>experience thus far is with only fluoros at 40w/sq ft, hardly something
>worthy of 18" buds. With ScrOG I have gotten secondary shoots (not primary
>shoots) with colas bigger than mainstem top colas from fluoro crops without
>a trellis.
>
>The primary trade-offs between SOG and ScrOG are the time and maintenance
>involved with maybe 8 to10 times more plants and cuttings, and probably
>multiple mothers versus the time involved in training shoots; and super
>large colas versus just large colas. It's a subjective call where one has
>to do both to appreciate what real benefits will appeal most to him.
I've gotten around the need for keeping multiple mothers. Details to follow. But I think you also need to add into the equation the extra time needed for fewer plants to fill a ScrOG canopy.
>I found that with using fewer plants, aside from dealing with high numbers
>of clones and the mothers, it also meant fewer pots and much less medium to
>de-root, sterilize, and handle between crops (if you have reusable medium).
>One chore I sure was glad to lessen. With disposables like soil or
>rockwool you still have to replace and handle it.
Joo gots dat right, mang! The biggest job is cleaning the system and medium. Takes a couple of days for a large system. But because each cycle is shorter in SOG, say 70 days from seedling or clone to harvest, it is not necessary to completely sterilize the system each cycle. At least as long as you have good cleanliness habits throughout.
Shutting down and cleaning head to toe is only needed every other cycle. Still a major pain in the ass, though. BTW, folks, you're wasting a lot of money if you're using liquid bleach. Head on down to the hardware store and buy some super chlorinating powdered pool chemicals instead. Much cheaper, much stronger and chlorine in this form evaporates out of solution faster than liquid bleach. Aqau Chem Shock Treatment works very well for about $5 a bottle. Equivalent to literally hundreds, maybe thousands of gallons of liquid bleach.
>The main limiting factor regarding garden size with ScrOG is how far one
>must reach across or under the trellis to train shoots. If the trellis is
>so broad that any of its inner regions are more than an arms length away,
>it then becomes impractical. I find two feet to be my limit. Training
>would be too prohibitive if one had to be air lifted to the center of his
>ScrOG, or had to crawl under the netting:-) As far as 100 sq ft goes,
>it's up to ones imagination as to how the "arms length rule" could be
>applied, circular, rectangle, or square shaped gardens, whatever.
I still use a trellis, of sorts, and therefore pretty much follow the arm's length rule, but I don't train the plants much at all. The only time I bother is if a few individuals are much taller than the rest. Otherwise it's grow, baby, grow!
>When I first started my ScrOG I had the flat fluoros in mind. After two
>crops I realized that if they could be replaced with HIDS on a linear mover
>the existing buds could only be bigger. A linear light mover on a track
>9-10 feet long could cover a 2x12 foot (24 sq ft) area and one side could
>be against a wall. So a 12x8ft room could have 2 of them for 48 sq ft of
>canopy, with a 4 foot wide 12 foot long workspace between them. With one
>plant per 2x4 space, 6 plants could be used. Could probably get away with
>fewer but I haven't really used more than 8 sq ft for one plant. Judging
>from the way these things grow under a trellis fewer than 6 is not
>unrealistic.
Afriend of mine (garden B) is using one 1000 watt MH on a light rail for about 35 sq ft (5' x 7') and is getting excellent results. Garden A uses two 1000s, 1 MH and 1 HPS, on a Sun Circle in a 12' x 12' room. The actual canopy is four 47" x 49" tables holding 6 bus tubs each for a total canopy of about 65 sq ft. Garden A generally produces better than 30 grams per sq ft.
>>Moving the lights up and down isn't much of a problem. Neither is uneven
>height, to a degree. Large HIDs penetrate quite far down into the garden.
>Even a 1' difference in height isn't a big deal. The shorter plant will
>still get plenty of light. Plus, if you use a light mover, you can keep
>your lights closer to the tops.
>
>A main point is relative distance. Shorter plants in SOG may still get
>"plenty" of light with HIDs, but they still wont get as much light. How
>much? If you use a light mover and have the light one foot above the tops,
>the plants that are one foot lower are getting 1/4 the light as the taller
>ones. 75% is nothing to sneeze at, even half that is worth a look see. In
>Jorge Cervantes "Indoor MJ Horticulture" there is an excellent light to
>distance chart that kind of drives the point home with a graphic. With
>fluoros I've learned not to take an inch for granted, after all an inch
>could double the distance. When I eventually get HIDs I'll probably do the
>same simply because I'd be better off. Geez, with HIDs I wouldn't have to
>worry that my buds are getting too long:-))
Overall production is so strong in a full flow SOG system that it just doesn't make sense worry about shorter buds not producing as much. Pretty much every available space is used, so it just doesn't matter much. Plus, with as much light as Garden A is getting, the smaller buds are still very tasty with good crystal formation right down to the medium.
At 30 grams per sq ft on a 10 week total cycle, there's no reason to be anal about maximizing the yield of each plant. I know it sounds cavalier, but it's true.
>One interesting thing about ScrOG is that before buds start forming heavily
>all attention is focused to what's under the trellis for training. Once
>buds start filling the attention shifts to just what's above the trellis.
>At this point what's under the trellis is mostly unimportant as far as
>light is concerned, it's mostly wood. Above the trellis there is a sea of
>buds that's literally only an inch or two high. So the effective height
>difference between any two buds in the canopy varies by no more than an
>inch or two relative to the light. And each of the buds that are there
>could be said to be spaced in square inches rather than square feet. At
>this point, the entire canopy is not only closer to the light (+/- 2
>inches), but colas are also spaced closer together.
>
>>
>>I've seen people here say they don't get good bottom buds with floros.
>Gotta tell ya, I've seen lovely, crystal covered nuggets come off the very
>bottom of plants under HIDs. I haven't noticed much of a difference in
>potency or taste, either. 'Course those monster colas are mighty pretty!
>
>You're making me jealous now Bud. True, fluoros just don't penetrate:-(
Like I said, I get plenty of penetration. The plants get plenty of light, too (rimshot, please). Garden A does use a simple trellis, but to support the weight of the buds, not to train tops. The trellis consists of several wires strung across the canopy from wooden dowels. Buds are tied to the nearest wire for support. The trellis can be adjusted up and down by moving the dowels.
I regularly see buds over 12" and often 18". Single buds in excess of an ounce each are not uncommon. The next adjustment is identifying and using triploid clones as much as possible. Triploids have 3 off shoots at each petiole instead of 2. They produce MUCH better.
It is only necessary to train a plant when there is a difference in age. Then older, taller plants go on the outside and get tied down, not up, around the perimieter, extending the canopy a foot or so on all sides. Now, with a 2 garden system, this will no longer be an issue.
The cycle now goes something like this: Plant seedlings or rooted clones in garden A. After a few weeks, cut all lower branches for clones for garden B. After 4 to 6 weeks, put garden A on 12/12 and plant now rooted clones in Garden B. Several weeks later take all lower branches for clones for Garden A.
At week 10 to 12 in graden A's cycle, harvest buds, clean out graden A and plant rooted clones from garden B. This will hopefully fall in the middle of Garden B's 10 to 12 week cycle. Now, just lather, rinse, repeat.
Some adjustment is always necessary to get both gardens in synch, but once everything is on schedule there's no need for keeping mothers around. The only extra is a small fluoro system, say 4 four footers, to root clones. If extra clones are needed for another garden, they can be easily produced in large quantities by rejuvinating harvested plants. A healthy rejuvinated plant can produce 20 to 50 clones in less than a month.
The one area where SOG is a lot more hassle is the number of plants. Takes about 80 plants to fill garden A. I've been using 1 gallon pots in restaurant bus tubs. That's a lot of Geolite! Especially when it's time to wash and rinse it all.
I'm now cutting the amount of Geolite needed by 2/3 or more by switching from 1 gallon pots to silverware holders. You know, the white plastic cups with holes that sliverware sits in at restaurants? They're perfect! Very sturdy, and lots of holes for roots to grow out of. The only drawback is price; they're almost a buck each. 20 oz plastic drink cups are a good temporary alternative for on the cheap. Take a soldering iron and melt holes in the cups.
Cutting the amount of Geolite reduces the hassle to the point where I feel it balances out against the extra time required to train a few plants to fill a large canopy. I don't know about anyone else, but where I am the difference between 10 plants an 99, from a legal viewpoint is squat. 100 plants is the magic number here.
So now you're only using a few cups of Geolite per plant, not a gallon. And each plant still has the same amount of room for root formation, but some of that formation now takes place outside of the container. The other nice thing is you buy your containers from a restaurant supply store, not a garden store or head shop.
BTW, hot tip. 1 gallon pots are often available for free or very cheap. Check nurseries in your area. Many of them have piles of unused pots from transplanting that they will give away or sell for maybe a dime each. Stay away from the cheap extruded ones, though.
So the bottom line is, IMHO, a 65 sq ft full flow SOG system under HIDs producing 5 lbs per cycle from my POV is A OK. Enough acronyms for ya? The next step is 2 garden A's and 2 garden B's. That kind of setup would yield better than 6 lbs per month on an ongoing basis.
But even my relatively simple 2 garden system produces better than 3 lbs per month. Anyone doing that with a comparable ScrOG system? If so, I'd sure like to hear about it.
I know multi shelf systems can approach this kind of yield, measured by floor space, but I'd argue that a multi shelf system is much more hassle. Once the planst are in a system like the one I'm describing, it's pretty much set it and forget it. Maybe add some water or change solution, but otherwise very little work. Hardly even any leaves to pull. I check in at least twice a week, but I could easily get away with once a week or less.
BTW, I'll have a YOR for garden A in a few days. I'll give exact figures as soon as I have them. Garden B is 5 weeks away.
Cannibus Maximus,
Bud
From Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1] Fri Oct 31 17:20:58 1997
Newsgroups: alt.drugs.pot.cultivation
Subject: Re: ScrOG vs SOG and other questions...
From: pH <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>
Date: 31 Oct 1997 22:20:58 -0000
References: <199710302124.WAA29966@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19971031222058.13847.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Bud wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:05:56 +0100 (MET), pH wrote:
>>
<snip>
>I've gotten around the need for keeping multiple mothers. Details to
>follow. But I think you also need to add into the equation the extra time
>needed for fewer plants to fill a ScrOG canopy.
The extra time I understand as meaning veg time.
About 75-80% of the canopy is actually filled 'during' flowering. At least
with the varieties I've used (from stash seed) this has always been the
case. I just checked some notes, here's a brief chronology for two plants,
each with a 2x4ft canopy to fill:
Day 1 - 5 1/2 inch clones put in unit (15 days since taking the cuttings)
Day 8 - Plants hit the 10" trellis (were topped @ trellis 2 days later)
Day 20 - Plants put into flowering @ 12/12 (longest shoot avg 16 inches)
Day 55 - Canopy full, bud heads filling, upward growth has stopped.
On day 20 the canopy was only about 20-25% full.
Variety and technique kinda go hand in hand as far as timing to fill the
ScrOG canopy. That's really where the art is in using ScrOG, the timing,
and it takes a little getting used to. This whole subject is still in R&D
ya know:-) There's much yet to be learned, unfortunately I can only answer
just one question I might have with each crop, using one variety, with
fluoros. The variety I use right now isn't Da Exotic (it's a strange
animal indeed) and has a fairly long internodal length and a long flowering
time by most standards. On day 106 it will be harvested.
Perhaps you can tell from the above data that this variety, no matter how
early it was flowered, would probably still overgrow the trellis if two
plants were used. As it stands now they're only vegging in the unit for 20
days before inducing.
Of some Skunk#1 seeds I recently germinated I have one long and one short
internode plant. The short one has as many internodes as the long one but
is half the height, a perfect example of slower outward growth from a very
compact plant. Probably more mainstream than my current variety, but a
variety I have no experience with. How it will do with the ScrOG I haven't
the foggiest, but one crop with one plant will let me know if the next crop
should have two of these plants per 2x4 canopy.
The point I'm trying to make is this. If after one crop I found that the
short internode SK1 only filled "half" the canopy if flowered on day 20,
rather than extend the veg period to day 40 (or whatever) I could use two
plants of that same variety flowered at the same time (day 20) to fill the
entire canopy. With my current variety it's not worth my time or effort to
risk overgrowth and increase the plant# count by using two plants in hopes
of putting them into flowering at say 10 days. The ten day time saving
doesn't impress me, a 20 or 30 day time saving might IF no overgrowth
occurred.
--snip--
>
>>I found that with using fewer plants, aside from dealing with high
>>numbers of clones and the mothers, it also meant fewer pots and much less
>>medium to de-root, sterilize, and handle between crops (if you have
>>reusable medium). One chore I sure was glad to lessen. With disposables
>>like soil or rockwool you still have to replace and handle it.
>
>Joo gots dat right, mang! The biggest job is cleaning the system and
>medium. Takes a couple of days for a large system. But because each cycle
>is shorter in SOG, say 70 days from seedling or clone to harvest, it is
>not necessary to completely sterilize the system each cycle. At least as
>long as you have good cleanliness habits throughout.
>
>Shutting down and cleaning head to toe is only needed every other cycle.
>Still a major pain in the ass, though.
I totally agree. The real pain is de-rooting and handling the medium.
hehehe I wonder if this is what people talk about just before they turn to
a true mediumless NFT system:-) Hmmmmmm..... Maybe a mediumless NFT
grower would also find ScrOG to be a good technique for anchoring plants.
--snip--
>
>Overall production is so strong in a full flow SOG system that it just
>doesn't make sense worry about shorter buds not producing as much. Pretty
>much every available space is used, so it just doesn't matter much. Plus,
>with as much light as Garden A is getting, the smaller buds are still
>very tasty with good crystal formation right down to the medium.
>
>At 30 grams per sq ft on a 10 week total cycle, there's no reason to be
>anal about maximizing the yield of each plant. I know it sounds cavalier,
>but it's true.
It is true, at least for you, you're happy with your yield so can afford to
be cavalier. For some who might get the same yield/sq ft as you but only
have 3 sq ft grow closet, and smoke an ounce every two weeks, it's a choice
between running out of stash a month before the next harvest, making more
growing space, or getting anal with the space they have. I do see a
difference between having less to sell, and having less to smoke. I would
assume the latter is not a problem for you unless your name is Old Weather
Balloon Lungs:-)))
BTW Bud, I may have overlooked what full flow means. Is that the same as
constant flow?
--snip--
>
>I regularly see buds over 12" and often 18". Single buds in excess of an
>ounce each are not uncommon. The next adjustment is identifying and using
>triploid clones as much as possible. Triploids have 3 off shoots at each
>petiole instead of 2. They produce MUCH better.
You mean there are 3 shade leaves at each nodesite, as with a whorled
phylotaxy? If so, I haven't had success with the two plants I've run
across, and your the first I've heard praise them. One was a slow growing
male, the other was too scrawny and thin to even bother with. I've heard
that's par for the course with them. You must've gotten lucky.
--snip--
>
>The one area where SOG is a lot more hassle is the number of plants.
>Takes about 80 plants to fill garden A. I've been using 1 gallon pots in
>restaurant bus tubs. That's a lot of Geolite! Especially when it's time
>to wash and rinse it all.
I've changed from chlorine to H2O2 for sterilizing. Costs a bit more but
it's not toxic to plants and one rinse does it.
--snip--
>
>So the bottom line is, IMHO, a 65 sq ft full flow SOG system under HIDs
>producing 5 lbs per cycle from my POV is A OK. Enough acronyms for ya?
>The next step is 2 garden A's and 2 garden B's. That kind of setup would
>yield better than 6 lbs per month on an ongoing basis.
>
>But even my relatively simple 2 garden system produces better than 3 lbs
>per month. Anyone doing that with a comparable ScrOG system? If so, I'd
>sure like to hear about it.
I don't think there are that many ScrOGgers around yet, at least none with
comparable equipment. I'm hoping by next summer we'll have heard a lot
more from those trying ScrOGs on for size with various systems and
varieties:-) Regardless of the gross yield it's the per sq ft figures that
one needs to keep an eye on, everything else is a just matter of more sq
ft. hehehe Space... The Final Frontier.
>
>I know multi shelf systems can approach this kind of yield, measured by
>floor space, but I'd argue that a multi shelf system is much more hassle.
I think the hassle is in setting it up and equalizing the fill/drain times
between upper and lower elevations. Once that's done it's just a matter of
a step stool to get to the upper shelf canopy. Other than the step stool I
actually find it more convenient working in an upright position for a
change:-) Now if there were 20ft ceilings with 4 stacked shelves, hmmm
that could be a hassle.
>Once the planst are in a system like the one I'm describing, it's pretty
>much set it and forget it. Maybe add some water or change solution, but
>otherwise very little work. Hardly even any leaves to pull. I check in at
>least twice a week, but I could easily get away with once a week or less.
>
>BTW, I'll have a YOR for garden A in a few days. I'll give exact figures
>as soon as I have them. Garden B is 5 weeks away.
Great, send 'em on in.
pH
>
>Cannibus Maximus,
>
>Bud
Newsgroups: alt.drugs.pot.cultivation
Subject: Re: ScrOG vs SOG and other questions...
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 22:24:48 +0100 (MET)
Message-ID: <199710302124.WAA29966@basement.replay.com>
>On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:05:56 +0100 (MET), pH wrote:
>
<snip>
>>I've been watching this discussion with interest for a while. I'd have to
>agree, ScrOG is the better system for the hobbyist. But in large gardens,
>100 sq ft and up, I only see it as an advantage if there is a height
>limitation. You gotta love getting armloads of 18" long buds as big around
>as your arm!
>
>Bucket fulls of 8 inchers aint bad either:-) I gotta admit I don't know
>what kind of buds ScrOG would produce if it was used with the same light
>and plant that was used to produce the 18" buds. All my personal
>experience thus far is with only fluoros at 40w/sq ft, hardly something
>worthy of 18" buds. With ScrOG I have gotten secondary shoots (not primary
>shoots) with colas bigger than mainstem top colas from fluoro crops without
>a trellis.
>
>The primary trade-offs between SOG and ScrOG are the time and maintenance
>involved with maybe 8 to10 times more plants and cuttings, and probably
>multiple mothers versus the time involved in training shoots; and super
>large colas versus just large colas. It's a subjective call where one has
>to do both to appreciate what real benefits will appeal most to him.
I've gotten around the need for keeping multiple mothers. Details to follow. But I think you also need to add into the equation the extra time needed for fewer plants to fill a ScrOG canopy.
>I found that with using fewer plants, aside from dealing with high numbers
>of clones and the mothers, it also meant fewer pots and much less medium to
>de-root, sterilize, and handle between crops (if you have reusable medium).
>One chore I sure was glad to lessen. With disposables like soil or
>rockwool you still have to replace and handle it.
Joo gots dat right, mang! The biggest job is cleaning the system and medium. Takes a couple of days for a large system. But because each cycle is shorter in SOG, say 70 days from seedling or clone to harvest, it is not necessary to completely sterilize the system each cycle. At least as long as you have good cleanliness habits throughout.
Shutting down and cleaning head to toe is only needed every other cycle. Still a major pain in the ass, though. BTW, folks, you're wasting a lot of money if you're using liquid bleach. Head on down to the hardware store and buy some super chlorinating powdered pool chemicals instead. Much cheaper, much stronger and chlorine in this form evaporates out of solution faster than liquid bleach. Aqau Chem Shock Treatment works very well for about $5 a bottle. Equivalent to literally hundreds, maybe thousands of gallons of liquid bleach.
>The main limiting factor regarding garden size with ScrOG is how far one
>must reach across or under the trellis to train shoots. If the trellis is
>so broad that any of its inner regions are more than an arms length away,
>it then becomes impractical. I find two feet to be my limit. Training
>would be too prohibitive if one had to be air lifted to the center of his
>ScrOG, or had to crawl under the netting:-) As far as 100 sq ft goes,
>it's up to ones imagination as to how the "arms length rule" could be
>applied, circular, rectangle, or square shaped gardens, whatever.
I still use a trellis, of sorts, and therefore pretty much follow the arm's length rule, but I don't train the plants much at all. The only time I bother is if a few individuals are much taller than the rest. Otherwise it's grow, baby, grow!
>When I first started my ScrOG I had the flat fluoros in mind. After two
>crops I realized that if they could be replaced with HIDS on a linear mover
>the existing buds could only be bigger. A linear light mover on a track
>9-10 feet long could cover a 2x12 foot (24 sq ft) area and one side could
>be against a wall. So a 12x8ft room could have 2 of them for 48 sq ft of
>canopy, with a 4 foot wide 12 foot long workspace between them. With one
>plant per 2x4 space, 6 plants could be used. Could probably get away with
>fewer but I haven't really used more than 8 sq ft for one plant. Judging
>from the way these things grow under a trellis fewer than 6 is not
>unrealistic.
Afriend of mine (garden B) is using one 1000 watt MH on a light rail for about 35 sq ft (5' x 7') and is getting excellent results. Garden A uses two 1000s, 1 MH and 1 HPS, on a Sun Circle in a 12' x 12' room. The actual canopy is four 47" x 49" tables holding 6 bus tubs each for a total canopy of about 65 sq ft. Garden A generally produces better than 30 grams per sq ft.
>>Moving the lights up and down isn't much of a problem. Neither is uneven
>height, to a degree. Large HIDs penetrate quite far down into the garden.
>Even a 1' difference in height isn't a big deal. The shorter plant will
>still get plenty of light. Plus, if you use a light mover, you can keep
>your lights closer to the tops.
>
>A main point is relative distance. Shorter plants in SOG may still get
>"plenty" of light with HIDs, but they still wont get as much light. How
>much? If you use a light mover and have the light one foot above the tops,
>the plants that are one foot lower are getting 1/4 the light as the taller
>ones. 75% is nothing to sneeze at, even half that is worth a look see. In
>Jorge Cervantes "Indoor MJ Horticulture" there is an excellent light to
>distance chart that kind of drives the point home with a graphic. With
>fluoros I've learned not to take an inch for granted, after all an inch
>could double the distance. When I eventually get HIDs I'll probably do the
>same simply because I'd be better off. Geez, with HIDs I wouldn't have to
>worry that my buds are getting too long:-))
Overall production is so strong in a full flow SOG system that it just doesn't make sense worry about shorter buds not producing as much. Pretty much every available space is used, so it just doesn't matter much. Plus, with as much light as Garden A is getting, the smaller buds are still very tasty with good crystal formation right down to the medium.
At 30 grams per sq ft on a 10 week total cycle, there's no reason to be anal about maximizing the yield of each plant. I know it sounds cavalier, but it's true.
>One interesting thing about ScrOG is that before buds start forming heavily
>all attention is focused to what's under the trellis for training. Once
>buds start filling the attention shifts to just what's above the trellis.
>At this point what's under the trellis is mostly unimportant as far as
>light is concerned, it's mostly wood. Above the trellis there is a sea of
>buds that's literally only an inch or two high. So the effective height
>difference between any two buds in the canopy varies by no more than an
>inch or two relative to the light. And each of the buds that are there
>could be said to be spaced in square inches rather than square feet. At
>this point, the entire canopy is not only closer to the light (+/- 2
>inches), but colas are also spaced closer together.
>
>>
>>I've seen people here say they don't get good bottom buds with floros.
>Gotta tell ya, I've seen lovely, crystal covered nuggets come off the very
>bottom of plants under HIDs. I haven't noticed much of a difference in
>potency or taste, either. 'Course those monster colas are mighty pretty!
>
>You're making me jealous now Bud. True, fluoros just don't penetrate:-(
Like I said, I get plenty of penetration. The plants get plenty of light, too (rimshot, please). Garden A does use a simple trellis, but to support the weight of the buds, not to train tops. The trellis consists of several wires strung across the canopy from wooden dowels. Buds are tied to the nearest wire for support. The trellis can be adjusted up and down by moving the dowels.
I regularly see buds over 12" and often 18". Single buds in excess of an ounce each are not uncommon. The next adjustment is identifying and using triploid clones as much as possible. Triploids have 3 off shoots at each petiole instead of 2. They produce MUCH better.
It is only necessary to train a plant when there is a difference in age. Then older, taller plants go on the outside and get tied down, not up, around the perimieter, extending the canopy a foot or so on all sides. Now, with a 2 garden system, this will no longer be an issue.
The cycle now goes something like this: Plant seedlings or rooted clones in garden A. After a few weeks, cut all lower branches for clones for garden B. After 4 to 6 weeks, put garden A on 12/12 and plant now rooted clones in Garden B. Several weeks later take all lower branches for clones for Garden A.
At week 10 to 12 in graden A's cycle, harvest buds, clean out graden A and plant rooted clones from garden B. This will hopefully fall in the middle of Garden B's 10 to 12 week cycle. Now, just lather, rinse, repeat.
Some adjustment is always necessary to get both gardens in synch, but once everything is on schedule there's no need for keeping mothers around. The only extra is a small fluoro system, say 4 four footers, to root clones. If extra clones are needed for another garden, they can be easily produced in large quantities by rejuvinating harvested plants. A healthy rejuvinated plant can produce 20 to 50 clones in less than a month.
The one area where SOG is a lot more hassle is the number of plants. Takes about 80 plants to fill garden A. I've been using 1 gallon pots in restaurant bus tubs. That's a lot of Geolite! Especially when it's time to wash and rinse it all.
I'm now cutting the amount of Geolite needed by 2/3 or more by switching from 1 gallon pots to silverware holders. You know, the white plastic cups with holes that sliverware sits in at restaurants? They're perfect! Very sturdy, and lots of holes for roots to grow out of. The only drawback is price; they're almost a buck each. 20 oz plastic drink cups are a good temporary alternative for on the cheap. Take a soldering iron and melt holes in the cups.
Cutting the amount of Geolite reduces the hassle to the point where I feel it balances out against the extra time required to train a few plants to fill a large canopy. I don't know about anyone else, but where I am the difference between 10 plants an 99, from a legal viewpoint is squat. 100 plants is the magic number here.
So now you're only using a few cups of Geolite per plant, not a gallon. And each plant still has the same amount of room for root formation, but some of that formation now takes place outside of the container. The other nice thing is you buy your containers from a restaurant supply store, not a garden store or head shop.
BTW, hot tip. 1 gallon pots are often available for free or very cheap. Check nurseries in your area. Many of them have piles of unused pots from transplanting that they will give away or sell for maybe a dime each. Stay away from the cheap extruded ones, though.
So the bottom line is, IMHO, a 65 sq ft full flow SOG system under HIDs producing 5 lbs per cycle from my POV is A OK. Enough acronyms for ya? The next step is 2 garden A's and 2 garden B's. That kind of setup would yield better than 6 lbs per month on an ongoing basis.
But even my relatively simple 2 garden system produces better than 3 lbs per month. Anyone doing that with a comparable ScrOG system? If so, I'd sure like to hear about it.
I know multi shelf systems can approach this kind of yield, measured by floor space, but I'd argue that a multi shelf system is much more hassle. Once the planst are in a system like the one I'm describing, it's pretty much set it and forget it. Maybe add some water or change solution, but otherwise very little work. Hardly even any leaves to pull. I check in at least twice a week, but I could easily get away with once a week or less.
BTW, I'll have a YOR for garden A in a few days. I'll give exact figures as soon as I have them. Garden B is 5 weeks away.
Cannibus Maximus,
Bud
From Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1] Fri Oct 31 17:20:58 1997
Newsgroups: alt.drugs.pot.cultivation
Subject: Re: ScrOG vs SOG and other questions...
From: pH <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>
Date: 31 Oct 1997 22:20:58 -0000
References: <199710302124.WAA29966@basement.replay.com>
Message-ID: <19971031222058.13847.qmail@nym.alias.net>
Bud wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 01:05:56 +0100 (MET), pH wrote:
>>
<snip>
>I've gotten around the need for keeping multiple mothers. Details to
>follow. But I think you also need to add into the equation the extra time
>needed for fewer plants to fill a ScrOG canopy.
The extra time I understand as meaning veg time.
About 75-80% of the canopy is actually filled 'during' flowering. At least
with the varieties I've used (from stash seed) this has always been the
case. I just checked some notes, here's a brief chronology for two plants,
each with a 2x4ft canopy to fill:
Day 1 - 5 1/2 inch clones put in unit (15 days since taking the cuttings)
Day 8 - Plants hit the 10" trellis (were topped @ trellis 2 days later)
Day 20 - Plants put into flowering @ 12/12 (longest shoot avg 16 inches)
Day 55 - Canopy full, bud heads filling, upward growth has stopped.
On day 20 the canopy was only about 20-25% full.
Variety and technique kinda go hand in hand as far as timing to fill the
ScrOG canopy. That's really where the art is in using ScrOG, the timing,
and it takes a little getting used to. This whole subject is still in R&D
ya know:-) There's much yet to be learned, unfortunately I can only answer
just one question I might have with each crop, using one variety, with
fluoros. The variety I use right now isn't Da Exotic (it's a strange
animal indeed) and has a fairly long internodal length and a long flowering
time by most standards. On day 106 it will be harvested.
Perhaps you can tell from the above data that this variety, no matter how
early it was flowered, would probably still overgrow the trellis if two
plants were used. As it stands now they're only vegging in the unit for 20
days before inducing.
Of some Skunk#1 seeds I recently germinated I have one long and one short
internode plant. The short one has as many internodes as the long one but
is half the height, a perfect example of slower outward growth from a very
compact plant. Probably more mainstream than my current variety, but a
variety I have no experience with. How it will do with the ScrOG I haven't
the foggiest, but one crop with one plant will let me know if the next crop
should have two of these plants per 2x4 canopy.
The point I'm trying to make is this. If after one crop I found that the
short internode SK1 only filled "half" the canopy if flowered on day 20,
rather than extend the veg period to day 40 (or whatever) I could use two
plants of that same variety flowered at the same time (day 20) to fill the
entire canopy. With my current variety it's not worth my time or effort to
risk overgrowth and increase the plant# count by using two plants in hopes
of putting them into flowering at say 10 days. The ten day time saving
doesn't impress me, a 20 or 30 day time saving might IF no overgrowth
occurred.
--snip--
>
>>I found that with using fewer plants, aside from dealing with high
>>numbers of clones and the mothers, it also meant fewer pots and much less
>>medium to de-root, sterilize, and handle between crops (if you have
>>reusable medium). One chore I sure was glad to lessen. With disposables
>>like soil or rockwool you still have to replace and handle it.
>
>Joo gots dat right, mang! The biggest job is cleaning the system and
>medium. Takes a couple of days for a large system. But because each cycle
>is shorter in SOG, say 70 days from seedling or clone to harvest, it is
>not necessary to completely sterilize the system each cycle. At least as
>long as you have good cleanliness habits throughout.
>
>Shutting down and cleaning head to toe is only needed every other cycle.
>Still a major pain in the ass, though.
I totally agree. The real pain is de-rooting and handling the medium.
hehehe I wonder if this is what people talk about just before they turn to
a true mediumless NFT system:-) Hmmmmmm..... Maybe a mediumless NFT
grower would also find ScrOG to be a good technique for anchoring plants.
--snip--
>
>Overall production is so strong in a full flow SOG system that it just
>doesn't make sense worry about shorter buds not producing as much. Pretty
>much every available space is used, so it just doesn't matter much. Plus,
>with as much light as Garden A is getting, the smaller buds are still
>very tasty with good crystal formation right down to the medium.
>
>At 30 grams per sq ft on a 10 week total cycle, there's no reason to be
>anal about maximizing the yield of each plant. I know it sounds cavalier,
>but it's true.
It is true, at least for you, you're happy with your yield so can afford to
be cavalier. For some who might get the same yield/sq ft as you but only
have 3 sq ft grow closet, and smoke an ounce every two weeks, it's a choice
between running out of stash a month before the next harvest, making more
growing space, or getting anal with the space they have. I do see a
difference between having less to sell, and having less to smoke. I would
assume the latter is not a problem for you unless your name is Old Weather
Balloon Lungs:-)))
BTW Bud, I may have overlooked what full flow means. Is that the same as
constant flow?
--snip--
>
>I regularly see buds over 12" and often 18". Single buds in excess of an
>ounce each are not uncommon. The next adjustment is identifying and using
>triploid clones as much as possible. Triploids have 3 off shoots at each
>petiole instead of 2. They produce MUCH better.
You mean there are 3 shade leaves at each nodesite, as with a whorled
phylotaxy? If so, I haven't had success with the two plants I've run
across, and your the first I've heard praise them. One was a slow growing
male, the other was too scrawny and thin to even bother with. I've heard
that's par for the course with them. You must've gotten lucky.
--snip--
>
>The one area where SOG is a lot more hassle is the number of plants.
>Takes about 80 plants to fill garden A. I've been using 1 gallon pots in
>restaurant bus tubs. That's a lot of Geolite! Especially when it's time
>to wash and rinse it all.
I've changed from chlorine to H2O2 for sterilizing. Costs a bit more but
it's not toxic to plants and one rinse does it.
--snip--
>
>So the bottom line is, IMHO, a 65 sq ft full flow SOG system under HIDs
>producing 5 lbs per cycle from my POV is A OK. Enough acronyms for ya?
>The next step is 2 garden A's and 2 garden B's. That kind of setup would
>yield better than 6 lbs per month on an ongoing basis.
>
>But even my relatively simple 2 garden system produces better than 3 lbs
>per month. Anyone doing that with a comparable ScrOG system? If so, I'd
>sure like to hear about it.
I don't think there are that many ScrOGgers around yet, at least none with
comparable equipment. I'm hoping by next summer we'll have heard a lot
more from those trying ScrOGs on for size with various systems and
varieties:-) Regardless of the gross yield it's the per sq ft figures that
one needs to keep an eye on, everything else is a just matter of more sq
ft. hehehe Space... The Final Frontier.
>
>I know multi shelf systems can approach this kind of yield, measured by
>floor space, but I'd argue that a multi shelf system is much more hassle.
I think the hassle is in setting it up and equalizing the fill/drain times
between upper and lower elevations. Once that's done it's just a matter of
a step stool to get to the upper shelf canopy. Other than the step stool I
actually find it more convenient working in an upright position for a
change:-) Now if there were 20ft ceilings with 4 stacked shelves, hmmm
that could be a hassle.
>Once the planst are in a system like the one I'm describing, it's pretty
>much set it and forget it. Maybe add some water or change solution, but
>otherwise very little work. Hardly even any leaves to pull. I check in at
>least twice a week, but I could easily get away with once a week or less.
>
>BTW, I'll have a YOR for garden A in a few days. I'll give exact figures
>as soon as I have them. Garden B is 5 weeks away.
Great, send 'em on in.
pH
>
>Cannibus Maximus,
>
>Bud
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)